#cacw meta

[musclesandhammering]

Saw a team cap fan complaining that Tony fans don’t get that The Accords & the concept of oversight are not mutually exclusive & you can be against The Accords while still admitting that the avengers need accountability…. and that would be a perfectly valid point if they didn’t fail to acknowledge that Steve was openly against any kind of oversight at all.

[amarriageoftrueminds]

Also Tony didn't ask if Steve knew it was TWS, (as usual Tony interrupted before Steve could explain), he asked if Steve knew, period.

To which Steve answered 'yes' because, well, taking the chance of assuming Zola was telling the truth, he did more-or-less know it was Hydra.

But there is still the mystery of why Hydra were killing one of their own (was it because he was stealing the serum from Hydra?) Stark was openly working with Hydra for decades -- other Hydra agents, not just Zola!

That does tend to cast doubt.

I can see why Steve might still not feel certain that Zola was telling the truth.

Plus, this assumed-to-be-real video of TWS killing the Starks is coming like one day after Zemo frames Bucky for a crime he didn't commit by... faking a video.

Zemo could have faked another video and got to Siberia in time to plant it, in order for Stark & Co. to see, as if it was an old original that had been kept there all along.

Genuinely, without having to change anything you could write a version of this movie's ending where it turns out TWS literally didn't kill the Starks, and not even Bucky himself would know it!

I'm about 8 years late with this but one thing in the Civil War dispute I have never seen anyone from either side point out (and I could just be completely wrong on this):

There is no indication Steve actually knew Bucky killed Tony's Parents

Steve knew it was Hydra because, and as far as I am aware ONLY because of Zola's little exposition scene in Winter Soldier where he shows a bunch of newspapers clippings of things Hydra is responsible for, including Howard and Maria Stark's death.

I repeat: things HYDRA is responsible for. So, yes, Cap knew Hydra killed the Starks, and knew Bucky was working for Hydra. That does not mean, because of that little exposition scene, Cap decided, 'oh yes, in the last 70 years Hydra has only had one man doing all their assassinations, so that must mean Bucky killed Howard and Maria.'

The thought it might have been him could have occurred to Steve, but either way, that would be a theory, and not something Steve has any reason to tell Tony.

For further proof, this exchange from Civil War straight after Tony & Steve watched the security footage:

Tony: "Did you know?"

Steve: "I didn't know it was him."

Tony: "Don't give me that shit, Rogers. Did you know?"

Steve: "...Yes."

To me at least, that 'yes' means Steve knew Hydra, as an organisation, killed Stark's parents, and he elected not to tell Tony, which he is shown to have found out in Winter Soldier so we know that. But his initial statement, "I didn't know it was him", we have no evidence wasn't entirely truthful.

(Whether Tony hears that 'yes' as 'yes I knew Bucky killed your parents' or 'yes I knew your parents death wasn't an accident/orchestrated by Hydra' is ...debatable, but either way I can't see any reason to believe Steve meant the latter, especially since he has already said he knew it wasn't Bucky specifically.)

Why didn't Steve tell Tony Hydra killed his parents?

I can think of a few reasons, whatever side of the Civil War divide you are you can probably come up with more:

1. Steve knew Zola was trying to distract Steve and Nat when he showed those newspapers, so was just trying to keep them engaged, and hinting there might be more to the death of an old friend and get Steve emotional would be a great way to do that. Steve might have suspected it was true, but with no actual evidence he didn't want to open Tony's old wounds.

2. The avengers were going after Hydra post-Winter Soldier, and Steve was worried about what Tony might do/how reckless he might be/didn't trust him enough to risk telling him the people they were targeting killed his parents.

3. It was more than 30 years in the past. If Steve didn't know it was Bucky, it would be likely the person who did it (or at least authorised it) was long dead or unfindable (again, 30 years cold case, no evidence except in a bunker in nowhere siberia that Zemo spent a year searching for when he knew exactly what he was trying to find), so there would be no justice to get, so it would be only hurting Tony for no reason.

But the point is there are a lot of reasons Steve wouldn't tell Tony (admittedly a lot aren't very good or wishful thinking, and Steve probably should have said something, but it is a common theme across the MCU that Steve doesn't always have as much faith in Tony as he should (and then sometimes Tony builds Ultron because he got scared and you can understand why Steve might not trust him when emotional), I'm not here to idolise either of them or say either were completely right in this movie, just point out one thing I see a lot of people complain about). A lot of those reasons don't hold if Steve knew that it was Bucky, and we will never know if Steve might have told him if he did, but you can't blame Steve for not telling Tony something he didn't know himself.

[musclesandhammering]

On Narrative Bias

I keep saying it annoys me how Wanda has done so many evil ass things and is never held accountable for her actions, and it never fails that someone tries to respond with “but aren’t you a loki stan? He’s done evil shit too! So you have a double standard and are a misogynist!!!!” Yeah, no. The difference is that you can clearly tell who the writers have predetermined as a hero vs a villain. You can tell who they want you to root for. Loki’s actions are given narrative consequences as harsh as possible, while Wanda’s are narratively excused and softened and sympathised. Let me show you what I mean.

* Loki commits treasons, tries to kill his brother & attempts genocide -> Loki’s father rejects him while he attempts suicide

* Loki tries to conquer earth -> Loki is sentenced to life in prison

* Loki incapacitates the king and secretly takes the throne -> Loki is threatened with a hammer to the face, we’re reminded how awful he is by all the other characters for the rest of the movie & he would’ve faced more consequences if the apocalypse hadn’t interrupted

* Loki steals the tesseract from the vault -> Loki watches his brother be tortured & then has his neck snapped

Now compare that to…

* Wanda willingly signs up to work for a nazi organisation, tries to help an evil robot murder the avengers, intentionally sets the hulk loose on a town of innocent people, & helps destroy Sokovia for a lil while -> Wanda gets a fatherly pep talk from Clint & is immediately accepted as an Avenger

* Wanda accidentally murders a bunch of people while on a mission -> Wanda is put on temporary house arrest in a giant mansion with her boyfriend

* Wanda buries her boyfriend/teammate under like 10 floors of concrete, breaks out of house arrest, & goes against a government order -> the leader of the superhero team defends her, a grown ass woman, by saying “She’s just a kid!”, she’s detained in a government prison for like a week maybe (?) during which she’s shown as a sad helpless victim to encourage sympathy from viewers, & then she gets busted out by the ex-team leader & eventually gets to run off to Scotland with her boyfriend

* Wanda holds an entire town hostage & tortures them just to fulfil her own grief-fuelled fantasy -> one of the women Wanda attacked reassures her that she’s the actual victim in all this and that the people she tortured just have no idea what she’s sacrificed for them & she escapes to an isolated location to read a forbidden demon book and make herself more powerful without anyone interfering

* Wanda goes on a serial killing spree across the multiverse, kidnaps a child, holds her hostage, tortures her, & attempts to take her powers all so she can steal another Wanda’s children because she misses her children that were never actually real in the first place -> Wanda gets some badass power sequences and #girlboss one liners, is the one that destroys the demon book, essentially saving the multiverse from future corruption, & is allowed to die a hero’s death (which we all know isn’t permanent)

See the difference?

[luna-rainbow]

Hey, I don't know if you've already answered this (and this may be a weird question lol) but why did Hydra just let Bucky's hair grow long? Why didn't they just cut it? I've seen you do other metas and stuff like that (which I love, you're a great writer!) So do you have any ideas?

Aww thanks for enjoying the other metas 💕

That is a very interesting question that I’ve never thought much of 😅

From a Doylist perspective, the Winter Soldier arc was published in 2005-6. Ed Brubaker was born 1966. Men having long hair became more acceptable and even fashionable from about the 1970s (ie Brubaker’s formative years), and that style carried over to the late 1990s (or, if you’re like me who was in the JPop fandom, it was still popular for most of the 2000s). Longer hair in men was generally seen as subversive and cool, or untamed and unkempt, which were descriptors that would have fit Bucky’s reappearance in his new persona. It was also a good way of indicating that time has passed and his character has changed significantly. One other thing is, when it comes to 2D art, long hair flows, ie it’s easier to express dynamism, which is why so many superheroes wear capes. I believe (not having read the actual comics) Bucky’s role changed in The Winter Soldier run from a pure sidekick to something closer to an antagonist and partner, so the more distinctive character design reflects that too.

From a Watsonian perspective…I guess men’s short hair can be somewhat high maintenance in that you kind of have to trim it once a month at least. Who knows if the serum affects the speed of hair growth as well, because if it does then maybe he needs more frequent trims and it just gets long if they miss any. Presumably, given his history, he’s also not an easy customer to approach with a sharp implement, especially not that close to his face. And they’re always in such a hurry to pack him back in the cryo tube or to get him prepped for his mission that it just gets missed until it really gets in the way.

The other possibility is that the longer hair also changes his face shape substantially speaking as someone who didn’t recognise Bucky when the mask came off. It makes his face more angular and the shadows deeper. It probably stops his memories triggering as easily when he sees his own reflection. It serves to erase his original identity, along with his new “name” (although we have no evidence that he knew he was called the Winter Soldier while he was still brainwashed), new uniform and the bionic arm.

The third reason is that the long unkempt hair could be used as a psychological tactic. It’s emasculating and demeaning, especially for someone born in the 1910s and normally known to be well-groomed and tidy. It’s an element of control over his bodily autonomy that he cannot change without them allowing it or at least giving him access to implements to cut it. It contrasts him with the other soldiers, including the other “Winter Soldiers” we see in CACW, who are allowed to sport typical masculine haircuts, and serves as a continual reminder that he is “other”, if not considered somewhat subhuman.

So that’s my two boring cents. I wonder if anyone else has other ideas.

[countessravengrey]

Happy Birthday, Bucky!!

And Happy Stucky Resurrection/ Reignition/ Renaissance Day 2024!

Okay y'all, today's the day. Whatever you want to call it, we are bringing Stucky back (or acknowledging it never left) and celebrating it on Bucky Barnes's birthday.

Why not celebrate on Steve's? So glad you didn't ask. I have no idea how we got here except that Bucky's birthday came first in the original ask?:

Besides, Steve's birthday is all tied up with that whole "national holiday" thing, so let's give some love to our favorite misunderstood amputee brainwashed/wiped veteran on his birthday, yeah? Yeah.

Me personally? I'm doing the double (and a half) feature:

CATFA

CATWS

1st half of CACW (because the second half is just more Avengers focused)

I've been holding off watching all three of these movies for months in preparation. I didn't think it would be that hard not to watch CATWS (one of my top comfort movies) for this long, but here we are. I'm hoping I'll see something new. Even if I don't, it's still my favorite.

And yeah, I really plan to start at 7:04p EST lol. I like to think two supersoldiers would appreciate such a specific and fan-focused mission start time.

(get it? 7:04, 7/4, July 4th? ...my hyperfixation is showing)

I'm going to try to live-post reactions. And if that's not enough, I'll be posting as many metas and memes as I can find, so send some my way if you think I'll like them.

And, as promised, I got my first chapter up for a new long-form Omegaverse fic I've been working on and posted. Feel free to reblog!:

However you choose to celebrate, my dear fellow fans, make it epic.

[justakidfromfandom]

So how ‘bout this broke me. Again.

So after @possibleplatypus casual mention I just had a thought - part of the reason Bucky can so easily sneak up on Steve (e.g. in the apartment in Civil War, in the facility in Germany after Zemo triggers the Winter Soldier, or even in CATWS when Bucky rushes Steve from behind crates) without Steve noticing is because he’s so used to Bucky always being at his back. His presence doesn’t trip Steve’s danger wires at all, so he’s always a step late in reacting when Bucky does attack. If you think about it, Bucky is the only one who gets into Steve’s personal space more than any other of Steve’s opponents during their fights.

Cos their usual configuration is these 🤣

He subconsciously lets Bucky close cos that presence had always meant safety for him.

[bedlamsbard]

This is actually 3 things because ongoing breakup situation fried my brain so I kept forgetting. 1. That Peggy meta was a thing of beauty and I love that you managed to make her imperfect without ever falling into "this British aristocrat is a Relatable Underdog." 2. I kinda want to write my "alt!Loki hitting both his own and Thor's avengers beats" theory, but I don't want to make you feel like I'm trying to get you to go back to morning when I like Home a lot, your call? 3. Talk about Howard?

Aww, I'm sorry to hear you're not having a good time. <33333

I CANNOT get over the fact that the MCU tried to (a) make Peggy's and Whitney Frost's situations equivalent to each other in AC S2 when the flashbacks themselves made it clear that Peggy had every advantage Whitney didn't and (b) make Peggy's and Steve's situations equivalent to each other in CATFA and What If. I can actually see Peggy assuming growing up privileged but expected to fit into a certain role is equivalent to growing up poor, second gen, sickly, and with a single parent, but the narrative itself seemed to feel like those were identical, which is seriously uncomfortable.

I would be delighted to hear your alt!Loki theory! I don't get bothered about Morning the way I do with my Star Wars fic; I know exactly what's going to happen and how this story is going to end, I just haven't felt like working on it lately. So I would love to hear your theory!

Howard is a freak, which I say quite often and with affection. I don't think the MCU in any way intended him to be; it's a consequence of Howard mostly appearing in other people's memories, more as a plot device than a character, which is what he is in Tony's narrative. (And Tony says as much in his first scene in CACW.) We only see Howard as a non-constructed character on very few occasions and the only really extended occasion is CATFA, which is a much younger Howard than we see in Ant-Man or Endgame, or even his very brief flashback appearance in CACW. (I count IM2 as a constructed Howard because he's on camera and he knows he's on camera, he's just constructing himself here rather than being created by other people's memories/needs/etc.) Because Howard plays this wide variety of roles -- distant father, industrialist, inspirational father, casus belli, domineering boss, etc. -- it's easy to overlook what we see of Howard which isn't filtered through other people. I mean, literally, our introduction to Howard in IM1 is in newspaper articles about him. In IM2, it's Tony's memory of him, it's Fury using him to manipulate Tony, it's recorded videos -- and then CATFA we actually meet Howard, who is already at this point living the double life that Fury tells Tony about in IM2. Nobody knows he's involved with the SSR, just like for seventy years no one knew he was a member of SHIELD -- twenty years after his death! -- no one outside of SHIELD knew he was a member of SHIELD, including his own family. And the fact that Howard is the kind of person who not only could keep that secret, but actually did is such a major characterization note that should be the first thing anyone thinks of when it comes to him. Because everything else he does should be filtered through "this man is keeping a huge chunk of his life a secret." (and, I mean, one could definitely look at that as a metaphor for "Howard Stark was in love with a man for fifty years," but also it's...not a metaphor, he literally did that.)

[valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn]

Hi!! Today I was wondering about the overwhelming prevalence of "shipping fics", particularly when those two characters are portrayed as close friends in canon (or at least they are said to be close friends in the narrative).

Close friends? No, they are romantically (and sexually) involved. Without fail. Because clearly that's the only way two people can be that close, or be so determined to help each other. (rolls eyes)

It bothers me that close friendships are never "just" friendships, whether it's male-female or between men or women. It also bothers me that two characters who share even a little or a lot of screentime are lumped together romantically. I'm thinking of ships like Stucky, SamxBucky, IronStrange, even Stony (before the whole CACW thing).

Why is shipping so prevalent?? What am I missing? (Sorry that it feels so very vent-y...)

Honey, you're sending this to someone who has never shipped before so... hell if I know! 😜😂

Seriously though, I think it's a combination of things. Romance has always been a huge part of the narrative so it makes sense that many fics will include that. I used to think I didn't like it but I realized eventually what I didn't enjoy was a story where the characters are not written to be anything more than each other's loved ones.

It's one of my pet peeves when it comes to Steve and Bucky, for instance. I don't ship them (although I do find Stucky super cute), but I hate it when they're paired up romantically and nothing else defines them. Everything Steve does is for Bucky, or everything Bucky does is for Steve. As if they're not fully developed, complex and wonderful characters on their own. I'm not a fan of it in fics but I despise it passionately in metas.

Then there's the amatonormativity angle that impregnates pretty much everything. All that "unless it's romantic, the relationship is not valuable" has done a lot of harm. So I'm not surprised that many people will see two characters who are friends in canon (like Steve and Natasha, Nat with Clint, Carol and Maria, Sam and Bucky) and want their bond to be stronger... so they pair them up.

PS1. Just to make this clear, I'm not saying I have an issue with people shipping or writing whatever they want. By all means, go ahead! There are tags to navigate through that and whoever doesn't like it has to curate their experience, it's not the job of the creators to do so. That is very clear.

PS2. You can vent in my inbox whenever you want, by the way. Free range, it's all yours! 😉

PS3. Don't get me started on the IronStrange or Stony ships. I might combust.

[cloudbellsv3]

Okay....tbh....possible long post, possible temp post. Rmablings that don't make sense the longer it goes on lol.

When it comes to being a pro-Steve, anti-Accords, Tony lover, stony OTP, I feel like I'm often put in a weird spot. Like, if people were ao3 fics and those were my tags, there would nawt be many people available to meet by the time you finished filtering.

People who are pro Steve and also anti-Accords usually aren't stony shippers and likely couldn't give a fuck about Tony (or outright hate him and I'm too weak to handle Tony bashing #sawry), or they completely left the fandom - People who are Tony loving, Stony OTPers are a usually a miss the second we start talking about Steve - People who are anti-Accords Stony shippers have left the fandom in droves and/or started writing for a different Steve ship and people who are anti-Accords, Tony lovers are literal unicorns or they hate Steve anyways. And there are even more combinations that I'm not gonna mention right now. Too many.

I'm not even saying I've never ran into anyone that has the same "tags" as me. That would be a lie since I frequently speak with.....about two others.

But my grievance is that there isn't more? I think. I actually don't know my point, I'm just venting.

I guess - Like, you'll see my in a lot of stony spaces but I don't really particpate or interact with others because of the whole....Steve thing (and slight tangent - the Tony thing too because I've come to the realization that my view and characterization of Tony doesn't align as well with a lot of people and maybe it's the canon bootlicker in me giving me a different or extra perpspective but omg?). You won't find me in spaces dedicated to hating Tony even if they are super pro-Steve, anti-Accords because I actually, wholeheartedly love Tony a lot lol. I think he's wrong to do what he does often, but that's why I'm great at looking into his character and making excuses for him if I'm prompted to do so by people who hate Tony.

And I just feel like so many amazing fandom contributers were pushed out the fandom and got so exhausted (after CACW mainly) and it makes me sad lol. It also makes me how much more of an asshole I would be if I were around when CACW. Cause I've said this before, but I came out of that movie as a Steve stan. I liked him before, but that movie soldified it for me, so imagine the whiplash I got when everyone aparently thought he was evil or something. I think I'd be the biggest B.I.T.C.H around actually if I was a Steve fan and a Stony shipper during that time. God's strongest soldiers.

Also this is not a "woe is me, I fit nowhere in fandom" post because one, I don't believe that and two, I don't aim to get too close to fandom anyways. I'm just venting because I do feel awkward at times. It's the main reason I don't give Tony metas out anymore. I have so many thoughts about him, but my position as a Stony shipper is awkward to me.

I have more to say, but I'm not the best at detangling my thoughts and making something coherent out of them, so I'll leave this here! <3 Thanks for reading if you got this far.

[yusuke-of-valla]

Hadn’t*. I reblogged one meta arguing for team cap with valid points and no name calling and got “Team Iron Man asshole.” I told them they were really really bad at persuasion. Also annoying ex- ironcap shippers getting really petty and vindictive about it and it bleeding into ironstrange and making him act so , so out of character. (Not a shipper myself but I was friends with some and all of them were annoyed by it.)

I learned to curate my fandom experience on the battlefield (CACW fandom being really annoying)

(Even as someone who does ship ironcap lol some people were uh. Extreme on all sides)

[luna-rainbow]

Got curious about fandom trends so pulled some data from AO3.

Like a good scientist, going to start with Limitations:

Polyships not included. Ships list is also by no means exhaustive.

Not filtered for OTP:true so same fic may feature multiple ships that may not be the endgame

Also doesn't reflect which ship is centered in the fic as opposed to mentions

Obviously deleted fics won't turn up in the count, but it would be interesting to know real historical numbers for these fandoms

Quite a few fics have been backdated, given AO3 was only launched in 2009 and several fics are marked pre-2009. It's possible other fics have also been backdated but I think the numbers are small enough to be non significant.

I did not filter out between MCU and Marvel comics for the ships

(Addit for something new I noticed) Fics that have been updated on 2023 will disappear from earlier numbers i.e. if a fic was started in 2022 but is still being published in 2023, it will not show up in 2022 numbers.

As always, keep in mind AO3 has relatively higher slash ships than other fanfic sites

AO3 doesn't necessarily reflect the size of the fandom, only how many people write for the fandom on AO3 (duh). Other activity - discussions, meta, fanart etc doesn't always correlate to fic production.

RIGHT axis scale applies to the MCU area only - this is the overall number of fics being written for the MCU over the years.

Observations:

Stucky took a while to catch attention. In 2011 when CATFA came out, there was only 61 fics, but that jumped to ~400 and ~600 for the following 2 years.

Avengers (2012) made Stony into one of the first juggernaut ships of the MCU with around 3000 fics that year.

2014 CATWS vaulted Stucky into the stratosphere, going from less than 600 fics in 2013 to just shy of 6000 in 2014. SamBucky and SteveSam both started then, but SteveSam was the bigger ship at the time (500 vs 150 fics)

2016 CACW gave a boost to both Stucky and Stony, as well as a boost to SamBucky.

Curiously, SteveSam did not receive the same boost from the movie, and its numbers dropped in following years and stayed around 300

AC, starting in 2015, gave the first real boost to Steggy. Prior to this its numbers stayed around 200, with a small uptick in 2014 with CATWS to 400.

Clearly, lots of people were happy/unhappy/had things to say about EG, because that was when Stucky, Steggy and Stony all peaked, while SamBucky also had a big boost. This peak is also mirrored in the overall number of MCU fics produced

Big spike for SamBucky as expected from TFATWS in 2021, nearly breaking 5000 and overtaking Stony for the year

2021 was also the peak for overall number of MCU fics per year, which I wonder if it's partially due to Covid lockdown. Other franchises released that year were Loki, Black Widow, Shangchi, Eternals and Spiderman.

SteveNat and BuckyNat have stayed fairly constant ships (of around 500 fics/year) with a small boost from each movie. Staron has remained a small with around 100 fics a year.

[birdieart]

what was bucky calling himself in romania? did he use the romanian variant of James (Iakob) when he talked to people and had to give them a name? how did he even learn romanian? does he have romanian heritage? did he learn it during the war? how did he pay rent? was he working in construction or as a line cook or something? did he have a little old lady as a neighbour who thought he was too skinny and lonely and forced him to eat with her at least once a week? did she make him help with cooking so he could make the food himself? did he go to the orthodox church with her? did the local kids like him? did he cut his hair himself or did he brave going to a barbers to keep it at a length he liked? did he like talking to market sellers about fruit because it was an easy conversation and a way for him to get used to socialising?

i have SO many questions about bucky in romania

[justakidfromfandom]

I hate the writers that did this to them. It could’ve been so cool and emotional to see tony and steve at odds if they’d spent time to develop the friendship between them that would’ve existed.

Captain America: Civil War Commentary (Joe Russo, Christopher Markus, Stephen McFeely)

[pigtailedgirl]

hiii I hope you're having a great day! I'm not kidding when I say that it took several read throughs before I sent this 😭 I was just wondering if you'd mind linking any marvel meta and critiques pertaining to civil war and the accords, endgame, tfatws, tony, peggy, and the way steve and bucky's characters were treated.

context: I'm trying to explain some things to a friend of mine, but I just know there's posts that explain it better than I can. I spent over an hour scrolling through various tags and I really struggled to find my favourites.

I hope this doesn't sound too demanding, and feel free to ignore it if you're busy or you don't want to do it. I'm honestly just hoping you have some kind of folder where you keep them all! if you do, though, I would love if you included your own posts, because yours are some of the best ones I've read.

anyway, wishing you the best 💖

I admit this makes me super happy because, it's like even the internet friends know I'm a folder person! I do have a lot CACW and Endgame meta even offline folder saved lol.

I don't know if there is any specific arguments or points you and your friend are discussing to direct at? Let me know!

Here's what I have that applies in my current bookmarks, except LewtonBus which I think are articles for self examine and not to bring to discuss in rebuttals with friends, because there is really good stuff in them to ponder but, they are thesis' I'm not 100% subscribed too.

Also I can't rec enough the blogs of @thehollowprince, @robotmango, @monardarmmm, @fearlessinger, @chirping_tiger, @kateis_cakeis, @laporcurina, @cosmicmechanism, @keire-ke. I've scoured there tags and takes and loved so much if it.

STUCKY & Endgame

https://bamsmackpow.com/2019/04/30/avengers-endgame-lack-of-closure/

This is my defining WTF Endgame article. I don't see how anyone can argue against it. There is no explanation or reasoning to give out to the obvious and intentional erasure of Steve and Bucky out of Endgame's story narrative and why it doesn't fucking matter if you like the ship or the characters at all, erasing them, denying it, failed the set up of the story structure and the basics of arc complete writing.

The Stucky Essay - bilittlebarnes - Captain America (Movies) [Archive of Our Own]

This essay is so good. I was drawn in by it's argument on the "Bucky is alive!" moment of Endgame critic, because it highlights that the movie itself knows Stucky makes more narrative sense and importance and therefore uses it, but of course won’t let it be acknowledged. America’s ass is on display, just not the one they think.

The Silence of Peggy Carter. Peggy Carter was founder and Director… | by Summer Barbeau | Medium

I'm being really critical of Peggy's character being so beloved lately, examining my past defense of, but I think this article is the bomb on why Endgame's Steggy is dismissive of the pairing and characters whether you like them or not. An ending that devalues and silences your partner for romance is a fail.

For CACW

Exorcism, Burial, and Analysis: Representing Trauma in ‘Captain America: Civil War’ – Ceci n'est pas un discours (wordpress.com)

CA:CW, the reaction - cute but prickly (tumblr.com)

TFATWS

‘Falcon & The Winter Soldier’ & The Myth of Nonviolence | by Alex Mell-Taylor | An Injustice! (aninjusticemag.com)

I know it might not run in pop circles to my friends list but I'll say I agree with most if not all of the Mooler's breakdown of TFATWS.

https://youtu.be/N0Tu6pCvjQ4

In that Karli read more villain than John Walker to me, despite show intent, and it needs massive overhaul, because it's message sucked in many many ways. And I thought Sam and Bucky did come of as morally wrong and kinda massive jerks in comparison to Walker, as did the ethics of the Flagsmashers, the Dora.

That doesn't mean I've any love or interest in the John Walker character independently, as Jessica Jones season 1 did that style story better...it's a story meh in comparison to what I want which is a focused Sam story...and I certainly have no love or respect for Zemo's addition likewise. Where to go with the Captain America stories and ethics of the characters is so f'ed right now.

[ashdumpsterpile]

who was right in civil war enlightened one what was justified and what wasn’t

(Note: I wrote this in 40 minutes after getting out of urgentcare because I am a madlad. If there are any misspellings, discrepancies, or plot errors, I apologize in advance.)

So the biggest problem with identifying who is actually wrong in Civil War is that the script is kinda...bad.

Okay, listen.

The dialogue is pretty fantastic and everyone is in character. (For the most part.) But the conflict is mediocre at best and there are like five different storylines going at once that are supposed to parallel each other but do a really shoddy job of it.

I can't really say who was right, but I can for sure say who's side I would have been on.

Tony Stark's.

(I promise this isn't just because he's my favorite.)

So there are two main storylines that involve Tony Stark. Plot A) the Accords, and B) Bucky's whole thing. These two plotlines intertwine at certain intervals, especially the ending, but let's put a pin in that. Let's talk about the Accords first.

This is where a lot of the bad writing comes in. If you go to the MCU Wiki, it cites regulations such as wearing tracking bracelets and being thrown into prison without a trial. Here's the thing though...in CA:CW they don't mention any of these regulations even once. There is half the Avengers being thrown into the raft (which Tony breaks them out of), but the movie doesn't once cite a single regulation beyond the fact that 117 countries are trying to keep superheroes with potentially dangerous powers in check.

If they really wanted me to side with Steve on this one, they would have at least thrown something in there. At most, they just bring Thaddus Ross on screen as a kind of shorthand to prove that the Accords are corrupt, but this doesn't really hold any weight for someone who hasn't seen The Hulk or read the comics.

So the only argument they've got going is government bad=Accords bad, which...fair enough. But this movie is placed literally directly after Age of Ultron (which is another nightmare of a movie script), where it is firmly established that the Avengers making decisions on their own, without input from any higher officials, is historically a bad move.

Actually, let's back up, let's talk about the Avengers.

I don't really understand why they're still a thing after S.H.I.E.L.D. was disbanded. They aren't owned by any organization, they don't work for any organization, and they're not affiliated with any official government. Which means they can be viewed as vigilantes or terrorists, depending on how badly they botch up a mission. And considering how amazingly well Age of Ultron goes, I'm honestly not surprised that the United Nations wanted to put restrictions on them.

So -much to my chagrin-I'm actually on the government's side here.

What about the Avengers as a team?

Okay, so you have a Billionaire supergenius, a soldier from WWII with superpowers, two ex-S.H.E.I.L.D. agents, an Alien who sometimes shows up, and a scientist who turns into an uncontrollable rage creature. Adding onto that, they recruit two military veterans, a sentient robot, and the ex-nazi responsible for their last fuck-up.

If we take a look at their actual team dynamics, we have a group of people who are already split down the middle. Half the team is looking to Steve Rogers for leadership and the other half is trusting Tony Stark. These two men not only do not get along, but they don't get along to the extent that it affects how they work in a crisis. On top of this, said ex-nazi hates Tony Stark so hard that it- again- destroys an entire city and they decide to put her on the same team.

The Avengers have only had one successful onscreen mission (Avengers 2012) and that was more down to sheer luck than actually being capable of working together and carrying out a mission. They mention other missions they've been on at the beginning of Age of Ultron, but it's also noted that the collateral damage they've left in their wake was what spurred the UN into creating the Accords.

Not a great team.

So when people chalk Steve's entire argument down to the safest hands are our own, are they actually right? Should the world be entrusting their lives unquestionably in a team whose members should have been in therapy 6 movies ago (except for Rhodey and Sam, they get a pass).

Yeah hard pass, to be honest, I would have retired the team and restarted from scratch even before putting the Accords on the table. Which is why I am entirely on Tony's side because he is the more accountable between him and Steve. He tried it Steve's way in Age of Ultron, and it ultimately failed (that's another meta post for a different time). So now he's trying to keep the team together within the parameters that 117 different governments are clamoring for.

So my opinion on who was right? I lean more onto Tony's side.

Now what was justified?

Steve was justified in helping Bucky. I absolutely do not condone some of the things he did to protect him, but I can understand trying to help your best friend. It's a choice that I would make. I'm not one for saying the end justifies the means, but it's clear that Bucky was in trouble and that turning him in was a bad move. This is the one choice Steve made in Civil War that I absolutely approve of.

Tony was justified in his anger at Steve and Bucky and Bucky was not at fault for the death of Tony's parents. These two statements can and should coexist. I see a lot of people flipping out over Tony's reaction, but honestly? He's 100% justified. He just watched an incredibly traumatic tape of his mother dying with her murderer standing next to him. But that ain't what it was all about.

That's what this is about. Steve was the last person Tony could have even comprehended lying to him about something like this. It wasn't about whether or not Bucky was the killer (although that had to be upsetting). It was about Steve breaking his trust. His reaction is absolutely understandable and completely justified with this in mind.

Now what wasn't justified?

Every scene with Wanda in it, Sam putting blame on Tony for the raft situation (edit: I think it actually may have been Barton who did this, but it's been a while since I've seen the film), and Steve's worst apology ever letter. I could literally write separate metas on each of these, so all I'm gonna say is the narrative used Tony as a cope out to cause problems for other people. All of Wanda's problems (sans her parents' death, which actually wasn't Tony's fault) are caused by her own doing. All of Sam's problems were caused by his own doing. And Steve's letter was the shittiest apology I've ever read and makes me turn into a rage monster every time I think about it.

None of those things we're justified and I sigh every time I think about them.

Anyway, long story short, this movie is a dumpster fire trainwreck that either needed to go through several more drafts or should've just been tossed in the bin. Tony's motivations are far more reasonable and sympathetic, and I'm still mad at them for putting him and Bucky on opposite sides.

(Please feel free to shoot me more questions or to disagree. I love talking meta/analysis with others, and would be thrilled to hear y'all's opinions.)

[rainbowsuitcase]

This is Civil War meta/analysis; I like to think I write these objective but I know I'm biased, so Tony lovers, consider this a disclaimer

Civil War's final fight demostrated perfectly why both Tony and Steve had a point.

Tony, in the face of a crime that causes him deep personal pain, decides to deliver the punishment/revenge without being able to objectively weight whether or not it is deserved.

This is a an example of a situation where being "put in check" and not being able to act without a higher-up's permission would be good, if only so he himself would have the time to cool down and act more rationally.

On the other hand, Steve is arguably facing personal pain, or at least the risk of it, in this fight too (you cannot tell me there's not a parallel or something between the Winter Soldier killing Tony's mom, and Tony attempting to kill Steve's best friend, but that's a post for another day I guess). But he's able to keep a level head to protect an innocent man and when he gets the opportunity, he ends the fight swiftly without unnecessary casualties.

This is an example of a situation where the responder is able to keep a level head and having to wait for the "go ahead" would only slow down his reaction time and potentialy result in more casualties.